Hello everyone, and welcome to, uh, another edition of "The Talent Bar." I am so excited for our guest today. She has one of the most interesting career paths we've had on the show. She started as an elementary school teacher, spent seven years in an aerospace company, and now has been at the same ed tech startup for a decade, where she's been promoted a number of times, um, and is currently their chief people officer. She didn't come up through talent acquisition, as I said, and that what, what makes her perspective so sharp and interesting. Um, when she needed to build a recruiting function, she took a sales pipeline model and applied it to TA and it worked, so we're gonna talk about that. Um, she has a really, uh, strong point of view on culture fit, why it matters, even though sometimes that term can get, um, you know, can be a little polarizing, so we'll dig into that a little bit more. And, um, just really excited to talk. So she is the chief people officer, as I said, at Prodigy Education. Sarah Jane Laitinen, welcome to the show.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here

Colleen Gallagher: I love to start off, um, just talking specifically about your views on recruiting and by asking like what is the one thing or one action that you think sets the best recruiters apart from the rest?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Yeah, I think that's a, that's a great question. Um, and I debated this idea 'cause there are so many great things, I think, that set good recruiters apart. But I think the one that I, I really love to see the most is an openness to experimentation, um, where the best recruiters and the best recruiting teams treat hiring like a product. So always testing, always learning, always iterating. Just not being, um, tied to about how things have been or how things have always been done, and just being willing to challenge your own playbook, not just the candidates, um, in front of you. And so I think that from an individual perspective, but also from a company perspective, there's a lot of benefits. Um, you know, from a company perspective, I, I think when you have a recruiter or a recruiting team that can do this, it can also just help you to, like, raise the bar over time, um, which I think is really exciting

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. Um, how do you think about identifying for something like that, um, when you're hiring recruiters or when you've hired them in the past?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Well, I do love situational behavior, um, style questions. Uh, so whether it's, you know, I d- not, I don't necessarily what would you do if, but very much, you know, tell me about a time when. And so I think, you know, you can definitely pull that mindset based on how they've approached different challenges in the past. Um, I also, even though I know many, uh, TA folks disagree with me, love a good case study. And not one that, you know, you put out there and somebody's investing eight to 12 hours of unpaid personal time into,

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: you know, just like balancing the tell me about a time when with an actual situation that does come up within the business where you can work through that together to understand how they think and how they approach,

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: as they're, as they're talking through that.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah, I'm a big fan of, of those as well. I mean, we've, you know, we typically use some sort of project or, um, I, I guess we would call it an assessment, but it's not an assessment in the, in the sort of standard nomenclature around like somebody's actually taking a test, um, or, or doing a questionnaire. It really is more of a project. But I do think it helps understand sort of, you know ... It's less for me when I talk to candidates, it's less about what the output looks like, although obviously that's important. You want it to be, uh, n- you know, it shouldn't be ... We, we've had people who have given us things that are very sloppy And so obviously like that's not a good, um, good first step, but it's really more about like, okay, how did you approach this? Like what was surprising about it? What didn't ... You know? And I think it just gives them a little bit more of a real world thing. And frankly, um, when I hired recently for a chief of staff role, it was something that I wanted them to do for me when we, you know, when, when they s- took, took the role. So, um, it also gives the candidate sort of a view into the day of the life and, and how you speak with, you know, the, the other folks internally. And I guess on that topic, like do you all or have you all considered doing, work trials?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: No. Not considered it, but like, like not seriously, but discussed the idea

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: I think the model that we've leaned into more is hiring freelance or on contract where there was. So it's not like a true work trial, um, but it is in the same way to where like the position can be converted to full-time.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Uh, because I, I do like seeing how people show up, and I think it benefits the company as much as it benefits the person, because what if they don't like the scenario? What if they don't like the environment or the company? And so I, I love anything that gives both sides a window, because we're both trying to investigate each other. It's not just a one-sided thing.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah, I, I tend to like the, the model you're outlining as well better than the work trial, um, in terms of like it being a one or two-day quick thing, uh, because of the fact that it does tend to disrupt somebody's-- maybe if they're in an existing role or you want them to be on site, it, it can be a little bit, I, I don't know, disruptive is, is the word that comes to mind. But yeah, we, we've, we've hired some folks on a, you know, contract to hire sort of basis as well, and that's generally worked out, better

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: I also like the f- the freelance model as well only because, um, the person doesn't have to walk away from their position. So depending on how casual or how serious they are in exploring a new role, they can still do their full-time job as long as it's not cont- contradicting their employment agreement, of course. But they can still do that, and they don't have to walk away from the guaranteed income to try it out, see if

Colleen Gallagher: No

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: it, and then make the move if it feels like

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. I guess going back to sort of the project or, or some type of wor- of work that you might use, how are you thinking about that in the age of I- AI, and what's the approach you've taken in terms of what can and can't be done around AI in that process?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: So I think, um, being able to create a product leveraging AI, I have no issue with that as long as you can speak to it. And so, um, because again, and maybe even case study's not the right term, it's just the term that I use.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Um, maybe project is better, but at the end of the day, like it's about how they show up to the interview and the conversation that we have in the interview and how they're able to speak to it. Um, and so I think, you know, if you can do a whole bunch of work product with AI, use that well, but then speak to it, edit it, make sure that there aren't quality issues with the product that you're doing. At the end of the day, that's the goal. Um, AI's part of our society now and part of the way we work, and so we, I, I don't, I wouldn't want to spend all my time or my team's time sussing out whether they did it themselves or leveraged AI as opposed to do they understand the work? Do they understand the topic and the content?

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah, totally agree. Um, well, t- switching topics a little bit, um, one of the things I highlighted in your intro was about this, uh, concept of culture fit, and I know you're, you're very intentional about culture screening in your hiring process and, you know, I think that term can be really polarizing. So what does it mean to you, and why do you think it gets such a bad rap?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: I think, I think when you get caught up on the semantics of culture fit, that's where it, it gets a bad rap.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: we're not trying to, you know, emphasize similar to me bias. Um, but the reason why I put it under the category of culture fit, because it is about finding people, um, who really thrive in our environment and will not only just thrive, but make everybody around them better.

Colleen Gallagher: No

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: that isn't a list of technical requirements or necessarily experiences, um, because not all companies are the same. And so it's not something that can be checked off through screening, uh, a resume. It is something that we assess through the conversation and through the interview process, and it comes out in those questions. You know, if we're talking about something that's HR specific, um, you know, asking the question as a follow-up prompt, you know, well, what would you have done better? Like, that ties to that growth mindset piece. Are you open to feedback? Are you open to that maybe not everything is perfect the first time through? And so, you know, just making sure that somebody, because we-- 'cause of our environment and, and the people that like what that looks like, we wanna make sure that they're gonna enjoy it. Uh, because again, um, it should be good for them. They should be growing and developing and making the teams around them better as much as they're providing impact and value to us as a business. And so I, I think that's where for me it's, it comes down to trying to build great teams that do great work. And so the category for me is culture, and that's why I tie it to

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Fit piece.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. And I know, um, you shared with me before that you have somebody whose, whose sort of role in the process is to help assess for culture fit. Obviously everyone's talking about that, I would imagine, throughout the process. But, um, it sounds like you, you maybe have a specific person. So how do you train that person to be able to do the culture fit interview? Like, what are the types of things that person's looking for? And, um, how is there... You know, or is it a yes, no, um, and they have veto power? Or how do you think about that in the process?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Yeah. That's been a fascinating over time and, and, and a learning process. Um, it started with when we were really small, you know, the CEOs interviewed everybody. Um, and then the CEOs went from like handling, not the top of funnel, but every other stage of the hiring process to they were kind of at the tail end or the final say. And es- and eff- essentially, they were kind of that culture fit or that culture bar in the early days. But once you get over 100 people, um, and you're trying to scale fast, we could-- It wasn't the best use of their time. Um, and I say CEOs 'cause we do have a co-CEO model, which is slightly unique.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: so we did have two of them, which helped make it, you know, last a little longer. Um, but, you know, I hired an individual to come on and understand how the CEOs think. And so, um, his whole job at first was to calibrate himself to the CEOs, uh, because they set the tone

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Culture and how we're going to work. And so that was how he learned it. Now, we had our culture values, um, but he had to figure out how to incorporate those into the interview process in a way that, um, wasn't discriminatory, that didn't, you know, leave great talent, um, or people that would challenge us to think differently, um, out of the pipeline, but make sure those people were included as well, but also just make sure that, that individuals understood our environment, um, and knew what they were getting into and could truly thrive here. And so it started as that, and then it translated into training for other people, because the reality is we can't hire a team of individuals that do that. And so it, it is slightly modeled off of the like Amazon bar raiser model of, you know, those, having those dedicated people who understand the culture and who know how to assess for it and have good interviewing skills to be able to, you know, be that lens, um, in the interview process. And as we've grown, it's, we're constantly looking at how do we modify this and improve this. So we've tried a lot of different things along the way.

Colleen Gallagher: where, where in the interview process does that interview sit? Like, do you do it a little early so that you don't waste time going through like a panel of, you know, multiple interviews? Like where do you actually slot it in?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: So we have what we've called culture value probes. So we make sure that everybody at every stage of the interview is assessing for it so that if any flags are raised, we can dig in at the next level. Um, but the actual culture piece comes at the end of the process with the goal of it is veto power, but they're, they're doing it to a smaller subset. And so the people that get there are the people who have already gone through a few

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. Do you ever get surprised by... Yeah. What, where, where do you think, like, what comes up? Do you have-- Are there any, like, patterns or, or things that you've noticed about, um, what leads to that?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: M- most, most common is it's more of just the experience of the person who's at the end in, in where we get surprised, um, whereas the other people in the process maybe just don't have as much experience. 'Cause over time, what we've also done is, um, we've, you know, flags that maybe come up, we track those. But

Colleen Gallagher: Mm-hmm.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: We might hire and, and still move forward with the individual, but then we track how are they performing, how well are they doing to see, like, you know, are these coachable, um, and, and when does something become an actual problem to where you're issuing a warning or you're actually terminating employee? So we are doing that kind of quality of hire check even after people have onboarded. And so what we might call a yellow flag, which would s- we would still move forward with the hire, it doesn't move to a red flag unless we've had multiple people who have had that flag go through and end in a termination scenario. And so it really is about time and experience

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: really understand the, the pattern recognition, um, which is where the training piece is, is so critical.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. H-how do you just tactically track all of that?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: analytics. I mean, you know, we, we track some of it manually.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: you know, we use from ATS to HRIS tracking that information. Um, we've built it into all of our hiring scorecards, so we use Ashby as our ATS. You know, we've built it into the criteria so that we can see that, and then we can just export the information. I will say AI has been super helpful in helping us to digest the volume of information and summarize it with time. Um, there are points where that's manual tracking and, uh, there are little things that slip along the way, but just trying to connect it across the cycle and having our ATS and our HRIS, um, with the right information so that we can draw those connections.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. So, um, obviously your background is in recruiting and n- but now you're the chief people officer of the company, and so I think you have a unique perspective on this. And one thing you've shared is that you use sort of this concept of, of team heat maps, and I think this is talks about or, you know, connects with what you're just talking about as it relates to, you know, what are we l- what are we looking at even once somebody continues or, or is hired. Um, with these heat maps, you're looking at which teams are delivering and why. Like, w- what have you learned about that and what makes a team actually work well together?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Yeah. I think it's a combination of like technical skills that can be learned and soft skills. And, and every team has a different context, and so understanding the context and the challenges within the team is also important. One of the things that we debate often is why not have everybody be super generalists so you can move somebody around, like for example, a PM or an engineering manager. Um, why not just make them so general that you can move them from squad to squad seamlessly? But each team has unique challenges. Um, like some of our teams have been around for a lot longer. Some of them are, you know, focused on feature delivery, and so you might need a stronger bend towards experimentation versus a team that maybe works really close with the CEO, and stakeholder management is, is a really important skill. And so because every team has its unique context, track not just individual performance against our role descriptions, which are like those technical competencies, but we do look at our culture values, or we call them our core company competencies, where it's not necessarily a value, but it is something that you need to be successful. Like communication and collaboration are the two most common things that come up 'cause we're in a squ- a classic squad matrix model. And so looking at how an individual on, in their personal growth sets them up for how their manager coaches them so that they can perform better. But then looking at that s- that team or that squad, like how are they functioning? Which squads are the fastest? Who delivers highest quality? And understanding some of the dynamics there is a really important piece because we have seen when you move people around, the difference that can make. We did this analysis, I think it was about a year and a half ago, and we swapped just a few people within squads, and then we tracked, and all of the squads improved their performance and their delivery

Colleen Gallagher: Wow

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: But they were also happier. So, um, 'cause like we assess, we, we use, um, our engagement survey. call it our experience survey 'cause it tracks multiple different

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Beyond just engagement. But we look at the team effectiveness, and we look at, you know, manager effectiveness, and we look at all these separate buckets. And when you see a team become happier because they're working with a different group that just kind of clicks and they're able to improve their performance, who doesn't wanna perform? It makes everybody happier. And so it, it is really neat when it works well, but it does take time.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: takes time to define everything. It takes time to figure out how to measure everything, how to track everything. And then even when you make a change, it takes time for that team to go through that, you know, mourning, storming, norming, performing.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Uh, and so like everything takes time, but I think one of the reasons why I've been here for a decade now is because I, I work in a company that a, has a high experimentation culture.

Colleen Gallagher: Mm-hmm.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: So getting to do this, there is enough time. And, and so being able to see how this has progressed over time is exciting

Colleen Gallagher: I'm, I'm a very, um, sort of linear thinker, operationally focused in a lot of ways. And so when I hear you talking about this, um, I love the, the fact that you get some signal and some data after you're able to do this and, and really look at the output. When you talk about getting the data and looking at quality of hire, right, that, that tends to be this like, um, mirage of a metric that everyone has a really hard time getting to because, you know, I think there's just so many qualitative inputs that have to go into something like that. Um, how often are you doing the culture surveys? How often are you doing performance reviews that help... It sounds like you're getting a lot of data through those types of things, so like how often are you examining those?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: So experience surveys we will do, um, any between, anywhere between three to six times a year, depending on the context of the business. And so it, it, it, it's not a just because it's March we have to run this. We look at the context of the business, what is happening. If we know, um, like want it to be too close to something positive or negative, because that will influence it either way. Um, or maybe we just made a big change, so we do wanna get a read on that. Um, but we want it just far enough to where the initial emotions are passed and it's, it's a true steady state read. So, so it does vary year over year, and we look at what the business is doing before just launching it. Um, we do performance reviews, um, where like we're not just-- So we do feedback monthly, but like we do like a talent review where we ask certain questions and calibrate on a nine-box two times a year.

Colleen Gallagher: Hmm

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Um, we've experimented with four, and that's too much. Um, so two times a year seems to be the right balance to get that input, and then squad health checks we do quarterly, um, because that's been a good read. But then from a pulse perspective, so all of that is like your mainstream, like you're onboarded, you're in the groove. But we do have a survey that goes out at seven days, 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. Only when you've done those are you considered mainstream. Um, and so that... But all of those connect to each other with just slightly modified questions. Um, and, and there's an employee lens, but then there's a manager lens as well. Um, and trying to calibrate, I think one of the most difficult variables is every manager has a different perspective of what good look like. Um, and it's only when you get into a talent review do you really calibrate managers across a department or an area or across the company. Uh, and so that's one of the hardest variables. Um, but we do have role descriptions, and so we, we have role descriptions for every role. And so using that, along with all of the other sentiments, just collects a beau- it, it collects beautifully into a nice pic- picture.

Colleen Gallagher: The thing that strikes me as you're talking is in order to get participation in a lot of these types of things, I think that's one of the number one challenges we hear from people is like the rate of, um, responsiveness either in, in a pulse survey or an employee engagement survey or performance reviews and how much time and effort people want to put into those, you know, tend to be a little bit better than even what you get from like interview feedback. But it sounds like generally speaking, and, and correct me if I'm wrong here, you-you're getting decent participation from employees across the organization. And so what's your secret? Like how are you getting that? 'Cause that tends to be a big challenge that I hear from folks.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: I had heard a long time ago somebody say, and I don't know where the source came from, but somebody said, "It's not, um, survey fatigue, it's lack of action fatigue." And so one of the most important factors is making sure that you are taking action, you are communicating, you are following up on all of the stuff. And so a big part of my focus is how are we communicating? How are we talking about this? And holding managers accountable to doing that part of it, um, because that's where we get it. We just did, we just did, um, a survey, and we had a 97%-- our experience survey was 97% response rate. Now, that was a record for us. That was by far the highest response rate, it was amazing to see that response rate. Um, we do follow up with managers and make sure it's 100% for, like, talent review or for performance reviews.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: and then, and, but a lot of that comes down to, like, staying in line with managers so that they understand the value of it, they believe in it, and leveraging them as our path to scale. Um, I've had a very big team in the past. I have a very lean team today. And so our only way to amplify our impact is to leverage managers and make sure they're our true partners. So I think that people partner strategy is critical, um, but what I love is a good pairing between, like, the business partner or people partner and talent acquisition so that they're all on the same page, because that end-to-end employee journey is, is the only holistic picture that we can use.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: so I-- breaking down the silo that I think just naturally creeps in between TA and HR, um, has been a constant focus as well.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah, I feel it was probably six months ago, but I kept seeing all this chatter on, on LinkedIn around TA should be completely separate from HR, and it just kind of blew my mind because I was like, you're just not doing it right then is, is my hot take on that is y- you know, you need to be pairing those people cl- more closely together, not separating them out into silos because it's silly to think that, you know... I mean, y- you have to hand that process. You know, y- there's just so much intertwined there, especially I think as we think about concepts like raising the talent bar and, hiring for the skills that are gonna make the team better, which is sounds like is a huge focus for you all.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: 100%. And, and h- when you can connect the dots, that's the key. And so for TA, if TA doesn't have all the context on the team, the struggles, the challenges, or the gaps in skills, how can they find the best person that brings those into the team? Um, and then likewise, you know, so many things are coachable, and so choosing to hire somebody, you still have to make sure you're coaching them in whatever, you know, gaps may come up in the interview process. Well, who's gonna make sure that happens? Um, that's where, you know, HR can support the managers and hold managers accountable to coaching those things, 'cause otherwise you're investing all that time and effort into hiring a great person, and you're not setting them up for success.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: and you know, we t- we talk about the cost of hiring all the time, and if you're gonna do right by that money, like you have to coach, invest, and develop your talent

Colleen Gallagher: It sounds like you also have, um, strong buy-in from the rest of the executive team about the value of the people function overall, which I think, you know, some, um, some companies struggle with. H- how have you built that relationship and, and, you know, made sure that you have a voice in all of this?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: yeah. I, yeah, agreed. So when I, I was hired on at a unique time because I was hired on, we hadn't even hit 40 people yet, so I was part of very early, and so I've seen us go through all of the crazy growth. Um, I was hired on to take on, you know, this function. I w- I've, I've reported with, to the CEOs my entire time,

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: I have a good relationship with them. Um, early on, I, I didn't come out strong with opinions. I, I focused on understanding where they were. Y- there was of course, you know, what I could glean from the interview process, but then it was like trying to understand some of their underlying beliefs. Um, and they had them. Um, they had their own opinions on HR and, and what HR could do. And so before saying, you know, "This is what the people function at Prodigy is going to be," I understood what their concerns were, and so I was able to build, um, m- mitigation strategies, I guess,

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: into how we looked at things. Um, and so one, there is a strong alignment between us, and then as we've continued to hire and grow the team, um, we start off from scratch with every new person that's added to the exec team or the, you know, the SLT team,

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Whatever you wanna call it. But, um, it starts with some baseline, here is what we believe, and, and we go through. Now, huh, I give the CEOs credit 'cause they have to redo some of the exercises so many times. do some of the team stuff, you know, together, and we start at the basic. Every time you change the team, you have to go back to square one

Colleen Gallagher: Mm-hmm

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: to like rebuild up, and they've been so patient, and they do it so wonderfully every time. Um, but I, I, I understand and I'm calibrated with them. And so, you know, I do think, um, if you are in a people leadership or if you're looking to be a people leader, that alignment with the owners, the president, the founders, the whoever's in that senior seat, that's where it starts. Because then getting buy-in from the rest of the senior leadership team is, is a lot easier

Colleen Gallagher: I think that's so true. I mean, there are definitely, cultures that I've been in, um, and, you know, my background is in finance. I've been in places where people sort of, especially some earlier stage companies, I think, or, um, maybe less experienced folks sort of see HR and finance as these sort of like back office functions. Just tell me what the numbers say and, you know, you know, make sure I'm paying people and, and things like that. And I do think a lot of it starts with you have to have leadership that actually understands the value of people.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Yeah, and putting the people function underneath another function, that says volumes right there.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: that is one of, that is the thing that just hurts my heart.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: And so it starts with where does the people function report to? Um, because in my opinion, um, you know, that you have your company mission, vision, strategy, finance pays for it, and the people are the resources, and tho- that's what drives it. And so you have to have that company level finance and people, that is your triad right there. Everything else comes after that.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Yeah ... at one, we worked with a company, um, when we were working through some org stuff, um, and, uh, and we actually structured our-- We changed the structure of our town halls or all hands, whatever you call them,

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: to be exactly that, where it starts off with, you know, the CEO strategy vision, and then it talks about, you know, the financial picture of the business, where are we at, and then we talk about core people things before we talk about product. Um,

Colleen Gallagher: Mm-hmm.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Again, to just show that that's how important all of these

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That's such a good, good, um, framing and way to think about it. We do something similar. although now that you say that, I'm like, I hadn't thought about it as intentionally as you just outlined, but I think that's very smart of, of, of you all to do it that way and makes a ton of sense. I guess one question, um, I mentioned this in my intro. You came into TA, uh, from a sales background, and you said you built your recruiting pipeline using HubSpot's sales pipeline model. So w- what-- walk me through that. What does a recruiting funnel look like to you, and how do you see the similarities between the two?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Yeah. Well, well, so it's interesting. So my time at the aerospace company, um, you know, I was project manager, I was highly administrative, but I was managing inside sales as well. And so, you know, the-- I think w- some of the most complicated, you know, relationships is that inside-outside sales dynamic. And so I had to really study the outside sales so that I could make sure that my team was an effective partner and that we could be seamless. So not only did I read books a lot on it, but I also spent a lot of time with the head of sales on the road with customers to really understand their world and what they're up against. And so then when coming into this role and now having, um, building up a talent acquisition funnel, it, it-- the more you dive into the funnel, like it just, it looks a lot like a sales funnel. And, and so there were so many great correlations, and one of my favorite books is the HubSpot book, uh, Sales Acceleration Formula, um, because when you start looking at all of those stages, again, data orientation. I like process, um, you know, 'cause it speeds up, it helps us know if we're getting better. I like being able to measure all the stages to know what good looks like, and again, are we getting better? Um, and being a- and all of those things help us to move faster and make decisions faster when they're all in balance. I understand process can go too far. All of these things can go too far. But when they're all in balance, we can move faster. Um, and so bringing that idea into the recruitment team, and I had them read the book. And so we started with, "Let's read the book, let's understand, and what are some of the things that you see? How does it relate?" And we started with just what do we, what did we see was different? What did we see was the same? And so it was a conversation. It was a book club turned conversation

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: that, that, you know, got us into this. Um, but it was such a fun and different way of thinking, and they all thought I was nuts at first, um,

Colleen Gallagher: bye.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: They read the book. And when we started talking about like, of course, it's not exact, but it's taking the principles that you can apply, and it helped us to really understand our funnel. Where are people dropping off? Because I like lots of stages. Hiring managers like lots of stages. We wanna feel confident in every hire, and that takes time. But the reality is, if people are dropping off, you're not necessarily getting the best people in. So trying to find the right balance of how many stages, how long at each stage, how many questions can I ask, to make sure that it's not just good for us as a business, but good for the candidate,

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: want as many candidates to go through that funnel as possible, 'cause that's ultimately what gets us to, "I think this is gonna be the best fit for both."

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. Where have you landed in terms of, like, optimal number of interviews and stages and things like that?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: I think it changes to the, I think the, I think the macroeconomic environment really influences that. Um, because, like, I think it was early 2022 when, you know, salaries were going up and everybody was just throwing money at people and, and it was so hard to hire. We had to reduce the stages, um, whereas right now it's a different environment. colleen-gallagher_10_08-05-2026_110710: Yeah.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: We're actually talking about adding some stages back in that we had previously removed, um, because it's a different environment. And so I think, again, you know, that recruitment like a product is so important.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: To understand the environment, and you have to respond. And so just because we've done it this way doesn't mean we're always going to. And so right now, because we're in a lull right now for hiring, we're, we're actually looking at our full funnel and, and we're saying: What do we need to change, and what should be different? Because we can take a little bit more time. We can better understand some of these things. And so, uh, it changes

Colleen Gallagher: I mean, it's, it's so true, and I think, um, you know, the, the example of what was happening in 2022 versus now, I, I also think it speaks to... And it's just an example of the fact that in 2022, because the talent market was where it was, I think, um, we had to make decisions faster and, and things like that. But, but also it feels like when there's a recognition right now that when you hire the wrong person or, and/or when you have fewer spots to fill, it's so much more important to get the right people into those roles. And I, I think that got forgotten a little bit in the sort of rush of hiring in, you know, 2021 through 2022, and probably even in the late teens, um, when things were really booming because it just has so much more of an impact when you're h- you know, when you go from hiring 1,000 people a year to 100 people a year, right? You gotta nail it. You gotta nail the hiring of the 100 people. And that to me is, um, is just sort of a critical way to think about it as well. And so, um, I know we always have to be thinking about the candidate experience, obviously, and so we don't wanna over-index on the number of, of times that we bring them in or have them do interviews, but I do think it al- allows for a better hiring process that benefits both the candidate and the company.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Oh, agreed. Because like even on the candidate side, we're in a weird world where we're seeing lots of information put out there by Gallup and such around, um, people are more afraid to jump, um, when they're, when they're in a comfortable role. And so what gives them the confidence to jump? Spending more time with the company, feeling like they know what they're getting into. And so the, like, it, it benefits both sides in a really meaningful way.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. You know, it's inter- I was talking, it w- this was probably, I don't know, six to nine months ago, and I was talking to a former, um, you know, chief people officer at a, a mid-market sized company, and she said, you know, back in 2018, 2019, and then again in like the 2022, '21 phase when people were hiring so much, she said, "Our CEO had our, like, head of TA, you know, in the executive team meetings, and they just had a lot more visibility and influence over the organization. But now, um, they don't." And I just thought that that was, like, the wrong f- the wrong thing to do is because you're still hiring, you're still hiring people. Like, y- you actually need to be more thoughtful and specific and, and have the influence of the CEO when you're hiring fewer people, because it just matters so much more to the ability of the company to achieve their goals.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Yeah. Agreed. Agreed

Colleen Gallagher: Um, okay, shifting topics a little bit. You-- I mentioned in the top you, uh, were an elementary school teacher. So, so how did we get here?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Yeah. I mean, I've always, I've always loved people and, and so, you know, why I chose elementary education was honestly a product of, of my environment at the time. You know, I was a, a classic teenage girl babysitting. I was refereeing soccer, working in summer camps, and so, you know, that big life decision of what are you gonna go take at school comes up, and it's like, I love kids, um, and so why not go be an elementary teacher? Um, and I did spend four years in the classroom, and I, I loved it. I did not leave because I didn't love education, which is a very different environment from where we are today in the world of education. Um, but when, um, all my credentials were American, and I'm Canadian, and so when my husband and I decided to move to Canada, um, we had-- I, I, I had to submit all my credentials to the Ontario College of Teachers. And so I took a contract position, uh, 'cause in, in Canada, mat leaves are very long,

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: you know, 12-month contract mat leave positions were a thing. So I t- I was filling in for a mat leave, um, and I fell in love with business. Um, all of the things that I loved about working with children, you know, helping them be successful. You know, in, in education, we talk about you never wanna solve the problems for the kids. You're teaching kids how to solve problems so that they can grow in their independence, and they can do things on their own, and they can gather knowledge and, and all of that applies in the workplace. Um, but it's funny, when it's adults, suddenly white glove experiences, um, you know, become a focus where it's like, but we're not teaching them, and so therefore we're not amplifying the impact. And so being able to, like, see that opportunity, I just got really excited about being in the business world

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: And solving some of those challenges. And so I've, I've not gone back to education, um, or in the classroom anyways, um, because I h- there are just so many exciting problems in the workforce

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: I just wanna try to solve.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: however, after being in the workforce for a while, um, I was being very intentional with where my career was going and when I-- and when the opportunity for Prodigy came up and I saw this opportunity to build s- from scratch the high growth, the scale a lot of, um, blank pages to get to really define, but it was in the world of ed tech.

Colleen Gallagher: Mm-hmm.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: To be able to, you know, bring my, my two worlds of now business and education together, it was exciting. And so that was a very intentional decision, and I've loved it. And I can, I can r- I understand some of our users' challenges because even though I was only in the classroom for four years,

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: I have had some of those experiences. Um, and so it's been, it's been neat. Although my experiences were so long ago, it's becoming less and less relevant as I, as I age, I suppose. Um, but, uh, it's, it's fun.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: See.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: still today, this day, I love the challenges on the people side. Um, and I, I wouldn't trade it to go back for anything. Um, but I do love being in the ed tech space.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah, I mean, I have to imagine it h- it's so helpful, um, you know, having... Especially in, in the company and the role that you're in, like you, you know, you, you mentioned it earlier when you were at the aerospace company and you went and traveled with the head of sales to learn more about what they were facing. Like, having four years in a classroom gives you a ton of context, whether, you know, maybe it is a little bit outdated, but it still gives you a lot of, of knowledge to help, um, you know, build this company that others may not have. So that's, that's really unique. I love that story. Um, one of my, um, favorite questions to ask as we close out is if you met yourself one day after graduation, what advice would you give yourself?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: nobody believes me today, but when I graduated from, from university, I, uh, I was very shy. I was, um, very timid, and there's nothing wrong with, with that. Um, I still have moments of that in me.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: but I was so afraid of putting an opinion out into the world, um, afraid of the response, afraid of the reaction. And, and honestly, I mean, my husband has, has been a huge factor that's helped me to grow. You know, training me through debating over anything and everything.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: But then also my entire career I've reported into, um, either head of sales or founders or CEOs and so like there's a, there's a personality there. And, and so, you know, I would love to tell myself to not be so afraid to throw an opinion out there in the world. And so today I, I really-- and maybe I've gone too far the other way. Um, uh, you know, I love the strong opinions loosely held where, yes, I can change my mind, but I find people operate better when they have something that they can break apart or iterate or make better. And so the, having the confidence to throw an opinion out into the world, to then collaborate to form it into the best idea, that's what I would want to tell myself. Um, because all of the things that I held back just out of fear of criticism when it's like, no, you're part of the process of making something into the perfect idea, that's the exciting part.

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: so I, I wish I had figured that out sooner because it's been a very long

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. Well, we appreciate you sharing your opinions on this show. I've learned a ton, and it's really great to have, you know, learn about your perspective, especially, like I said, somebody coming up through the TA, um, path, um, even though, you know, with a very unique way of getting there and all the way through leading the entire, um, talent function or chief people o- as a chief people officer. So really appreciate you sharing all your opinions with us today and, uh, thanks for being here.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: Thank you, and thank you for having me. This has been a l- a really fun conversation

Colleen Gallagher: Um, if people wanna find you, what's the best way to find you?

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: LinkedIn,

Colleen Gallagher: Yep.

Sarah-Jayne Lehtinen: There

Colleen Gallagher: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you again for joining us, and thanks to everyone who is listening. If you laughed or learned something today, please, uh, tell a friend about the show, and thanks again for joining. See you next time. ​

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